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Obamacare is raising insurance costs


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#21
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View PostGameOfLove, on 27 September 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

They know it will work and Americas will love it. It all comes down to Obama getting credit for it. Once people still loving it, it's NEVER going away and this is what the tea party doesn't want. They don't want a black man getting credit for a major change in health care in the history books.

I think your focusing to much on race. At least, hopefully, this is about philosophy for the vast majority. Of course there are racists in all fascists of society. Maybe the Tea Party has more than its share but I'm sure there are plenty in the Tea Party that aren't racist and if Obama took their view they would welcome him with open arms. Of course that has as much chance of happening as a snowstorm tomorrow.
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#22
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View Postrobbbs, on 27 September 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Most physicians don't want the Affordable Care Act. If you really dig into why, it ultimately boils down to a concern that they'll make less money. All the other reasons they cite are a red herring and they ignore the positives. I can't say I know all the elements of the act, but I do know that the prior health system's economics and costs are unsustainable over time. The Democrats offered an alternative plan. The Republicans offered exactly nothing. I also believe that there were elements in the prior health care system that are morally reprehensible -- refusing insurance coverage because of a pre-existing condition is wrong on every level. Maxing out insurance benefits so that you lose everything financially to continue to get healthcare for a serious illness is ridiculous. I support the new act if for no other reason than eliminating those reprehensible elements. Heath care is not a market driven industry. You don't go down to the local hospital to see what procedures are on sale that day. Will it all work? Will there be problems that need to be changed? Heck, what works perfectly in this world? Changes will need to be made but this is a concept that has to be initiated. If not, put out an alternative that's better. The old system is broken, whether people recognize it or not, and there is a moral imperative for all with health care.

Well said Robbs. What's funny is that in 2007 Jim Demint endorsed Romney for president in the GOP primaries, back in the days before Romney had begun to subtly renounce his positions on Romneycare. It's also true that the individual mandate was originally an idea endorsed by the Heritage Foundation - the conservative Washington think tank that is now headed by that very same Jim Demint.
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#23
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View Postrobbbs, on 27 September 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Most physicians don't want the Affordable Care Act. If you really dig into why, it ultimately boils down to a concern that they'll make less money. All the other reasons they cite are a red herring and they ignore the positives. I can't say I know all the elements of the act, but I do know that the prior health system's economics and costs are unsustainable over time. The Democrats offered an alternative plan. The Republicans offered exactly nothing. I also believe that there were elements in the prior health care system that are morally reprehensible -- refusing insurance coverage because of a pre-existing condition is wrong on every level. Maxing out insurance benefits so that you lose everything financially to continue to get healthcare for a serious illness is ridiculous. I support the new act if for no other reason than eliminating those reprehensible elements. Heath care is not a market driven industry. You don't go down to the local hospital to see what procedures are on sale that day. Will it all work? Will there be problems that need to be changed? Heck, what works perfectly in this world? Changes will need to be made but this is a concept that has to be initiated. If not, put out an alternative that's better. The old system is broken, whether people recognize it or not, and there is a moral imperative for all with health care.

Agree. There are good parts to this law, lets give it a chance.
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#24
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I do find it funny that some are arguing that Obamacare will cost the country so many number of jobs, but yet the Sequester and possible government shutdown has also already cost the economy as many if not many more jobs.
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#25
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View Postrobbbs, on 27 September 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Most physicians don't want the Affordable Care Act. If you really dig into why, it ultimately boils down to a concern that they'll make less money. All the other reasons they cite are a red herring and they ignore the positives. I can't say I know all the elements of the act, but I do know that the prior health system's economics and costs are unsustainable over time. The Democrats offered an alternative plan. The Republicans offered exactly nothing. I also believe that there were elements in the prior health care system that are morally reprehensible -- refusing insurance coverage because of a pre-existing condition is wrong on every level. Maxing out insurance benefits so that you lose everything financially to continue to get healthcare for a serious illness is ridiculous. I support the new act if for no other reason than eliminating those reprehensible elements. Heath care is not a market driven industry. You don't go down to the local hospital to see what procedures are on sale that day. Will it all work? Will there be problems that need to be changed? Heck, what works perfectly in this world? Changes will need to be made but this is a concept that has to be initiated. If not, put out an alternative that's better. The old system is broken, whether people recognize it or not, and there is a moral imperative for all with health care.
agree with you there. are physicians in the poor house, no. many physicians today didn't corrupt the system. their wages broken down hourly (at least where i am) would probably astound most people, for the education they have and continue to go through. i, as they, really dont know whats going to happen. i hope in the future they will have a need for the services i provide. in the end, unfortunately, health care is a business. if they dont get paid they wont be working. there are many people that need affordable health care. my parents are in that boat, they were on medicaid, decided to take soc.security early. they collect around $1300/month for both of them, then they were kicked off medicaid. so american citizens that have worked 40+ years in this country can't be taken care of because they were 60-80 bucks over the threshold. yes everything is broken, hopefully optimistic things work out.

#26
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This will also be great for students who are still trying to finish school who do not have health coverage and who have a ton of student debt. I will be 26 in December and will be off my parents health plan indefinitely. Hopefully there is an option for students with the new health law.
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#27
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View Postvascudave, on 27 September 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

agree with you there. are physicians in the poor house, no. many physicians today didn't corrupt the system. their wages broken down hourly (at least where i am) would probably astound most people, for the education they have and continue to go through. i, as they, really dont know whats going to happen. i hope in the future they will have a need for the services i provide. in the end, unfortunately, health care is a business. if they dont get paid they wont be working. there are many people that need affordable health care. my parents are in that boat, they were on medicaid, decided to take soc.security early. they collect around $1300/month for both of them, then they were kicked off medicaid. so american citizens that have worked 40+ years in this country can't be taken care of because they were 60-80 bucks over the threshold. yes everything is broken, hopefully optimistic things work out.

I'm one that respects education and all the years doctors put in. Difficult to say where equitable salaries should fall, and under our market system, you get paid whatever someone is willing to pay (ie. Arod and his $30M/year with the Yanks). But there are also many loopholes and built-in devices for physicians to charge way more than necessary and the system is rigged (look at hospital billing and that alone will make you ill). Another fallacy is that the American health care system is the best in the world. Go to middle America and that notion is believed as a given as much as that the sun will rise tomorrow. The fact is that is nonsense and pure propaganda. The US scores something like 37th in the world by the World Health Organization and some of our mortality and healthcare stats in some categories are nothing short of atrocious. When people commonly say "rich people overseas come to the US for medical treatment" as proof that our medical care is the best in the world, they overlook the fact that rich people also go to South Africa, France, Japan, Norway, etc. for the best medical treatments and specialists. That seems to be a fact that is never cited.
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#28
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View Postweatherbowl, on 27 September 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I think your focusing to much on race. At least, hopefully, this is about philosophy for the vast majority. Of course there are racists in all fascists of society. Maybe the Tea Party has more than its share but I'm sure there are plenty in the Tea Party that aren't racist and if Obama took their view they would welcome him with open arms. Of course that has as much chance of happening as a snowstorm tomorrow.

I really think it has a lot to do with race. Right Wing radio and FOX has been extremely vocal about it towards blacks, Muslims, and Hispanics.
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#29
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View PostGameOfLove, on 28 September 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

I really think it has a lot to do with race. Ring Wing radio and FOX has been extremely vocal about it towards blacks, Muslims, and Hispanics.

I agree that race is a big factor. The whole birthing nonsense was an attempt to dilute the legitimacy of Obama's presidency, largely driven by some people's disbelief or non-acceptance of an African American as president of the US.
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#30
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View Postrobbbs, on 28 September 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

I'm one that respects education and all the years doctors put in. Difficult to say where equitable salaries should fall, and under our market system, you get paid whatever someone is willing to pay (ie. Arod and his $30M/year with the Yanks). But there are also many loopholes and built-in devices for physicians to charge way more than necessary and the system is rigged (look at hospital billing and that alone will make you ill). Another fallacy is that the American health care system is the best in the world. Go to middle America and that notion is believed as a given as much as that the sun will rise tomorrow. The fact is that is nonsense and pure propaganda. The US scores something like 37th in the world by the World Health Organization and some of our mortality and healthcare stats in some categories are nothing short of atrocious. When people commonly say "rich people overseas come to the US for medical treatment" as proof that our medical care is the best in the world, they overlook the fact that rich people also go to South Africa, France, Japan, Norway, etc. for the best medical treatments and specialists. That seems to be a fact that is never cited.

When my parents visited Trinidad back when I was about 2, I got really sick and was taken to the ER. According to my parents, I got taken care of fully and properly, and for pretty much no cost, no questions asked. That was even though I was not a citizen of Trinidad, and even though there was no intention of my becoming a citizen of Trinidad. Contrast that with how my parents always had to go through red tape whenever they dealt with an ER visit for myself or my brother. The point I'm making here is that Trinidad (Yes, Trinidad!!!!!) has better health care than the US, and that alone is a disgrace, because Trinidad is not a fully developed country.
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#31
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View Postrobbbs, on 28 September 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

I'm one that respects education and all the years doctors put in. Difficult to say where equitable salaries should fall, and under our market system, you get paid whatever someone is willing to pay (ie. Arod and his $30M/year with the Yanks). But there are also many loopholes and built-in devices for physicians to charge way more than necessary and the system is rigged (look at hospital billing and that alone will make you ill). Another fallacy is that the American health care system is the best in the world. Go to middle America and that notion is believed as a given as much as that the sun will rise tomorrow. The fact is that is nonsense and pure propaganda. The US scores something like 37th in the world by the World Health Organization and some of our mortality and healthcare stats in some categories are nothing short of atrocious. When people commonly say "rich people overseas come to the US for medical treatment" as proof that our medical care is the best in the world, they overlook the fact that rich people also go to South Africa, France, Japan, Norway, etc. for the best medical treatments and specialists. That seems to be a fact that is never cited.

Did you ever read the article in Time about the "Chargemaster" written by Steven Brill? Crazy stuff, and everyone should probably read it.

Unfortunately I don't think its available free anywhere.
http://content.time....2136864,00.html



Also in relation to your point about our healthcare not being the best in the world, there was some recent study showing how much we pay for how little we get compared to other countries, and its astounding.
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#32
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View PostNittanyLion, on 28 September 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Did you ever read the article in Time about the "Chargemaster" written by Steven Brill? Crazy stuff, and everyone should probably read it.

Unfortunately I don't think its available free anywhere.
http://content.time....2136864,00.html



Also in relation to your point about our healthcare not being the best in the world, there was some recent study showing how much we pay for how little we get compared to other countries, and its astounding.

Nittany -- I did read that article. In fact, I also saw an interview with the author. He said he started out neutral or actually opposed to the health care act, but after seeing how our medical system fails and the fee abuses, he became a big supporter of the bill. As for our medical system versus other countries, don't get me wrong -- I love our country. However, there is such an indoctrination (propaganda) of people falsely thinking that we have the best of everything, it's actually sad. Often, it's said by people who never placed one foot outside their state, let alone out of the country. There's a tremendous lack of knowledge out there, and since they don't know what they don't know, people stay uninformed or, worse, fall easily to misinformation.
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#33
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View Postvascudave, on 27 September 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

agree with you there. are physicians in the poor house, no. many physicians today didn't corrupt the system. their wages broken down hourly (at least where i am) would probably astound most people, for the education they have and continue to go through. i, as they, really dont know whats going to happen. i hope in the future they will have a need for the services i provide. in the end, unfortunately, health care is a business. if they dont get paid they wont be working. there are many people that need affordable health care. my parents are in that boat, they were on medicaid, decided to take soc.security early. they collect around $1300/month for both of them, then they were kicked off medicaid. so american citizens that have worked 40+ years in this country can't be taken care of because they were 60-80 bucks over the threshold. yes everything is broken, hopefully optimistic things work out.
Some of the heart Drs where my wife works pays around 200K for
liability Ins. Some of the cases they do lasy from 4-6 hrs and they make $400-500 for them. Add the office staff and office rent ect something will have to give. The Hospitales are going to get paid less too. FYI I say the avg cost of the new ins will be around $350 a month. in NJ. But what they don't say is what deductable it has. Also these big companies are dropping the ins of there emloyees and putting them into the pool and then giving them the cheapest plan. So if you had a $500 dec. you may now have a $5k dec. Afew people I know may end up this way.
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#34
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House Republicans will vote to pass a one-year delay of Obamacare in exchange for funding the government. Meanwhile the President says he won't budge. Hmmmm, it doesn't look too good.
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#35
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View Postweatherbowl, on 28 September 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

House Republicans will vote to pass a one-year delay of Obamacare in exchange for funding the government. Meanwhile the President says he won't budge. Hmmmm, it doesn't look too good.

My fear that the Tea Party has no clue how to govern is coming true. Say what you want about Obamacare itself, but there is no way, no how that Obama and the Dems will back off of one of their signature pieces of legislation. If the Republicans knew how to govern (just like the Democrats under Tip O'Neill in the 80s), this would've been resolved before now.
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#36
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The Affordable Care Act is LAW. It passed, was enacted, and signed into law. You can't just not fund it because you don't like it.
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#37
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The Tea Party main goal (from what I understand and have read) is to stop big government from growing and reduce the national debt. Affordable Care Act increases the size of government and probably increases the debt. So the Tea Party is dead set against it and won't budge. The Republicans believe the same thing but to a lesser degree and would probably be more willing to compromise. The Democrats are dead set against delaying ACA and I can't blame them, as Nittany said it is now the law. So something has to give and should be interesting to see how this plays out. I really don't see the point of delaying it. If the Republicans think it is so bad and hurtful they should let it pass, if it turned out to be as they suspect, it could be the best thing that happens to them for 2016. Of course if they are wrong, welcome to the White House Hillary.
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#38
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View Postweatherbowl, on 29 September 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

The Tea Party main goal (from what I understand and have read) is to stop big government from growing and reduce the national debt. Affordable Care Act increases the size of government and probably increases the debt. So the Tea Party is dead set against it and won't budge. The Republicans believe the same thing but to a lesser degree and would probably be more willing to compromise. The Democrats are dead set against delaying ACA and I can't blame them, as Nittany said it is now the law. So something has to give and should be interesting to see how this plays out. I really don't see the point of delaying it. If the Republicans think it is so bad and hurtful they should let it pass, if it turned out to be as they suspect, it could be the best thing that happens to them for 2016. Of course if they are wrong, welcome to the White House Hillary.

The Tea Party are a bunch of idiots, simpletons, and hypocrites. They want small government and less spending, unless it favors them of course. Take a look at their voting record when it came to providing funding for NJ in the wake of Sandy. Most voted against it. But later when a tornado devastated parts of Oklahoma, or a fertilizer plant blew up half a town in Texas, the very same senators voted for Federal help and funding in a second.
The other ridiculous and unsustainable element is that they want lower taxes, always, no matter what, and no matter the consequence That just doesn't work. Take a look at California -- they had a deficit of $17B under Republican governor Schwarzenegger. Now, under a Democrat as governor, they have a surplus. Do you know how they did it? By cutting spending AND raising taxes.
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#39
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View Postrobbbs, on 29 September 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

The Tea Party are a bunch of idiots, simpletons, and hypocrites. They want small government and less spending, unless it favors them of course. Take a look at their voting record when it came to providing funding for NJ in the wake of Sandy. Most voted against it. But later when a tornado devastated parts of Oklahoma, or a fertilizer plant blew up half a town in Texas, the very same senators voted for Federal help and funding in a second.
The other ridiculous and unsustainable element is that they want lower taxes, always, no matter what, and no matter the consequence That just doesn't work. Take a look at California -- they had a deficit of $17B under Republican governor Schwarzenegger. Now, under a Democrat as governor, they have a surplus. Do you know how they did it? By cutting spending AND raising taxes.

Simple math and compromise.
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#40
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View Postweatherbowl, on 29 September 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Simple math and compromise.

Yes, precisely.
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