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#1
gpsnavigator

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This deserves another post, especially since I'm the resident college student on this forum.

The problem with the higher ed cool-aid is that it assumes that all college degrees are worth the same. They're not. A college degree from the University of Phoenix is not worth the same as a degree from an Ivy.

I personally have learned a ton in college. I have become a lot better with writing, thinking, reasoning, researching, etc. It really is a shame that many of you can't identify with all the "aha" moments I've had in college.

Another problem with the higher ed cool-aid is that it oh so often ignores student loan issues and increasing tuition. It is frankly disgusting how much a lot of people (including my college's hierarchy) is just circling the wagons on these issue"


Thundersleet-
It's great that you've been engaged in the process and are getting a lot out of it. I wish I could say the same. For me it was a "check the box" sort of thing so I could land a better start in life. I did it because that's what everyone else was doing and there is a lot of societal pressures too. I was also not particularly into the traditional college experience thing -- I lived at college for two semesters and then otherwise commuted. I don't feel like I did anything bad by doing that, nor do I knock people who choose to live at college. It just wasn't for me. And in a big way I'm glad it wasn't because it saved my family and I a lot of money.

I would maybe push back on one thing you said regarding value. True these ivy league degrees may be worth more, and sound better, (they cost a ton more too) but do you think ivy leagues are really any better people than say people coming out of county with associates degrees or state schools with bachelors? My opinion is that Harvard or Yale grads aren't really any better than Rutgers or even county. It's all in the name, and of course, what the learner is willing to put into it. Some recent narratives also suggest problems among college populations (and professors) with political correctness, and that this is actually constraining the discussions and idea sharing that theoretically should be happening on college campuses (this may be true of state schools too, not just Ivy). You can probably speak better to this issue being a student.

Also too, can you really learn everything you need in life on a campus? Don't we quickly reach a point where life experiences have to count?

I guess the problem I have with all of this (besides the debt bubble) is this: Why in a country of growing diversity that is also growing more liberal, do we continue to advocate for one pathway to success?? If you and I want to do the traditional college thing - hey awesome, we need doctors, nurses, engineers, climate scientists, etc. I fully applaud those folks, including yourself. By why should everyone be forced to engage in such a process? I just have a big problem with these one size fits all approaches to education that is starting all the way back in Kindergarten with this Common Core nonsense, and just gets more and more constrained as the students age. Until we eventually reach the point of the late teens years where they must either attend a good college or be shamed into a life as a second class citizen.

Maybe I'm being a bit over the top here, but I'm hoping my point is evident. Student debt is a HUGE crisis, but so, it would seem is a level of indoctrination. And as I've mentioned, for a country that is becoming more liberal, our education policy would seem to be anything but.
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#2
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Sleet - I agree with much of what you said. I got my degree 25 years ago and have a son in college. He is getting an undergrad in Kinesiology and will move on to Chiropractic school after getting his degree. So, in his case, advanced degrees are important. However, the students getting bachelor degrees in Business Admin, Criminal Justice, etc with no thought of getting an advanced degree (MBA, JD) are not learning much. They will learn how to think and thought process, but not much else that will be relevant in the real world. I have an BA in Economics and can say I have used very little of my education other than thought process.

I have drawn the comparison that a college degree today is the equivalent of a high school diploma 40 years ago. The advanced degree now separates you from someone else. However, where a HS degree was "free" you now have to spend $~100k to be on the same playing field as 40 years ago. That's a problem.

As for the college you attend, I believe there is some validity to that. Name recognition is important when its on your resume. My son goes to Temple University in Philadelphia. Most people I tell that to are impressed....it is a good school. But is his education there different than a NJ state school (Rutgers, Montclair, etc?) or an Ivy? I cant say yes or no. But name recognition is vastly different. So, it a perception vs reality game and the cost between that can be vast.

#3
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I am going to address the two posts above.

GPS-Ultimately, you can't quantify what degrees help you learn more (or less). Or, at the very least, I can't quantify it. So a Rutgers student who really pushes himself/herself is probably learning more than an unmotivated son of a famous person at Harvard or Yale.

But I will disagree with you money issues. Actually, some of the very best schools in the country are some of the most affordable schools in the country. It's the opposite of what you'd expect. Just look at the schools on the list with a no loans policy, and replace loans with grants:
https://www.edvisors...loans-colleges/
It looks like this list is a combination of state schools and some of the VERY best schools in the country. Something like 6 or 7 of the 8 Ivies are on this list. Top liberal arts schools such as Swarthmore, Vassar, Emory, and Oberlin appear on the list as well.

And then there are the schools that meet somewhere between 94-100% of demonstrated financial need. If you didn't read the title or the article, you'd mistake this list for being a list of the 80 best colleges in the U.S.:
http://www.thecolleg...financial-need/

So my point is that some of the very best colleges are some of the most affordable colleges. Of course, this is the "1%" college-wise, and there needs to be something for the other 99%. Yeah, I'm speaking as part of that 1% (my school is one of the 80 schools on that list).

And of course you can't learn everything on campus. But you can learn something. Or, at the very least, I have learned something. But once again, since I am part of the "1%" I guess (notice the Occupy Wall Street language I'm using here), maybe I'm different from the other 99%.

But once again, maybe the Occupy Wall Street language is needed here, because the student debt system is stacked against people who don't go to elite colleges. It really is. My student loan debt when I graduate college will be about 1/5 a lot of fellow graduates will have to pay. Wow.

Pirate-I'll say the same thing about degree value as I said to GPS. I will also add that I am still in college, so it'll take me a few years before I have an idea on how much the stuff I learned in college truly applies to the "real world."
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#4
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Wow, I learned something TS - I wouldn't have thought top tier schools could be affordable. Neat. None the less I still think it is vastly unfair that many of those elite grads will be bowed and pandered to everywhere they go in life, while many others will work just as hard (and harder) but continue to flounder and be labeled in a society stacked against us.

I think college attendance should really depend on what you want to do in life, and not neccesarily be the determining factor of if you will "succeed" in life (and I quote that because success is relative even though we are all being fed one definition of success starting already in grammar school).

Look at both political parties. They are defined by the elites, and the sheep that follow are supposed to hold the views of the elite or do the walk of shame. Do you see anyone in a leadership roll in either party who hasn't graduated from some prestigious university with a law degree or some other degree held in high esteem? Where are the ditch diggers, the hard working people that were given a chance to lead?? Even on MSNBC, or any news program, you never see ordinary people -- whatever group their promoting that particular day is always voiced by an elite leader who supposedly represents the views of their followers. Same with FOX, CNN.

My apologizes for sounding cynical if I do. I really hope you do well with the rest of your studies, and can do something awesome with it.
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#5
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View Postgpsnavigator, on 01 August 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

Wow, I learned something TS - I wouldn't have thought top tier schools could be affordable. Neat. None the less I still think it is vastly unfair that many of those elite grads will be bowed and pandered to everywhere they go in life, while many others will work just as hard (and harder) but continue to flounder and be labeled in a society stacked against us.

I think college attendance should really depend on what you want to do in life, and not neccesarily be the determining factor of if you will "succeed" in life (and I quote that because success is relative even though we are all being fed one definition of success starting already in grammar school).

Look at both political parties. They are defined by the elites, and the sheep that follow are supposed to hold the views of the elite or do the walk of shame. Do you see anyone in a leadership roll in either party who hasn't graduated from some prestigious university with a law degree or some other degree held in high esteem? Where are the ditch diggers, the hard working people that were given a chance to lead?? Even on MSNBC, or any news program, you never see ordinary people -- whatever group their promoting that particular day is always voiced by an elite leader who supposedly represents the views of their followers. Same with FOX, CNN.

My apologizes for sounding cynical if I do. I really hope you do well with the rest of your studies, and can do something awesome with it.

Some top-tier schools are affordable. There are still top-tier schools which are really expensive; NYU and Fordham are two such schools in the area which have a good reputation but aren't generous with financial aid/student loans.

But actually, it makes sense that some of the top schools are also affordable. Schools like Princeton, Middlebury, and University of Chicago, to name a few, have HUGE endowments (because they have wealthy donors) and have to use those endowments somehow since they are nonprofit entities. The result is that many of these institutions use endowments to make college expenses affordable for their students.

Affordability aside, politicians don't mention this dirty little secret: the pathway to success is not about education per se, but connections. Scott Walker, a presidential candidate and college dropout (to answer another of your questions), was a volunteer in a campaign for someone who became a Wisconsin governor, a Chairperson of the National Governors Association, and a member of W's cabinet. Bill Gates met Paul Allen in a private school in Seattle, and Steve Jobs also ended up befriending people who "hit it big."

Of course, you also need knowledge to go along with that networking. Some people, such as a Gates or Jobs, didn't need college to gain that knowledge. Some do. Some don't gain that knowledge, regardless of college. Some just get that knowledge on the fly and not in college.

P.S. I knew that I mentioned Scott Walker, but I am not a big Walker fan. He basically said that fighting teacher unions are like fighting ISIS. To me, that's an indicator that he is too much on the other extreme, too anti-education.
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#6
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Stanford is offering free tuition to some middle class families too:
http://www.wsj.com/a...ents-1428087257

In regards to student debt, while I agree with a lot of the points made on here, not everyone needs to go to the expensive out of state or private school either...
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#7
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View PostNittanyLion, on 02 August 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

Stanford is offering free tuition to some middle class families too:
http://www.wsj.com/a...ents-1428087257

In regards to student debt, while I agree with a lot of the points made on here, not everyone needs to go to the expensive out of state or private school either...

Totally agree. A lot of the debts people accumulate are because of wants not necessarily needs.
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#8
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View Postweatherbowl, on 02 August 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

Totally agree. A lot of the debts people accumulate are because of wants not necessarily needs.

I know a few people who are in major debt now because they spent like crazy during their college years. Instead of saving the extra loan money which should have gone to school supplies they wasted buying junk - a lot of non school expensive. Using that extra money like it's actually yours you earned instead of realizing it's loan money needing to be repaid back.

Luckily for me I was smart enough and saved that money. Once I graduated college, I used that money to start repaying back my student loans. Looking back I had a great time during my college years - learned a lot, meeting new people etc. but is the cost of college really worth it? I dunno.

To have a very successful career there is luck, timing and the connections you built up instead of what you know.
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#9
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If you have trouble understanding the problem the millennials face, Steve Rattner wrote a great piece in the NYT on Friday that clearly explains the issue. They are the most educated generation while having projected earnings will be much less than the generations before them. Think about that while pondering the amount of student debt that exists.

http://www.nytimes.c...ref=topics&_r=0

#10
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View Postcarribeanpirate, on 03 August 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

If you have trouble understanding the problem the millennials face, Steve Rattner wrote a great piece in the NYT on Friday that clearly explains the issue. They are the most educated generation while having projected earnings will be much less than the generations before them. Think about that while pondering the amount of student debt that exists.

http://www.nytimes.c...ref=topics&_r=0

As a millennial myself, I don't know if I agree with the solutions, but I think that the article is on point with the root problems.
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#11
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View Postthundersleet, on 03 August 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

As a millennial myself, I don't know if I agree with the solutions, but I think that the article is on point with the root problems.

Agreed as well and I'm also a millennial.
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#12
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GOL - glad you had a great college experience. Really, I don't knock it. We're going to need people in nursing, doctors, science, engineering, etc.) But I think we have to get away from this notion that it is the path everyone should want to follow. (see Nittany's and WBs post). Worse, society often groups and shames those who aren't in some kind of "professional" track and starting with a good brand name college.

CP - educated is a relative term. I think some people are good at what they do workwise, but not necessarily much else. Today, the term educated, along with the term success have been hijacked as a means to seperate the haves from the have nots. My grandparents were two of the most educted people you'd ever meet, married 70 years, and neither went to college. How? They talked, the listened, they were both very well read and did many things within the community. They compromised. Both worked with their hands, my grandmother was a master at crafts and kitting, and my grandfather did lots of tinkering with various things, from old vaccum cleaners to bicycles to cars. It's a shame that people like them would have a very difficult time finding a place in today's society.

Not to mention the work ethic has changed. Here, we're now indoctrinated from a very young age to identify with work. In other developed countries, work is secondary to your life.

I'll leave everyone with two links: In the second article, I don't much care for the teacher/teacher union bashing part, but many other points he makes are worth contemplating.

http://www.timesunio...-or-6419711.php

https://www.psycholo...errated-product
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#13
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The article points out that millennials have an average net worth of $10,000 which is down from $18000 from previous generation. The millennials average college debt is $35000 up from $18000 in previous generation. I guess that explains the lack of savings. To me the biggest problem this generation faces is that student debt. If you are going to college for a certain field of study and you can justify paying big bucks for it, so be it. However, if you don't know what you are going to do or you are taking a field of study that is difficult to find work in or simply doesn't pay that much, shouldn't you consider a cheaper school, at least for the first 2 years? I am far from college age but I can't help but think, lets see, I go to college and I come out owing $35000 or do I get a job for four years and save, maybe $15000. That puts me $50000 ahead of the game. At the same time maybe I can go to school at night and after 4 years have my 2 year degree. Then go to a state school for my bachelors with my $15000 and whatever else it takes. I'm just thinking out loud here, trying to come up with alternatives.
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#14
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View Postgpsnavigator, on 03 August 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

GOL - glad you had a great college experience. Really, I don't knock it. We're going to need people in nursing, doctors, science, engineering, etc.) But I think we have to get away from this notion that it is the path everyone should want to follow. (see Nittany's and WBs post). Worse, society often groups and shames those who aren't in some kind of "professional" track and starting with a good brand name college.

CP - educated is a relative term. I think some people are good at what they do workwise, but not necessarily much else. Today, the term educated, along with the term success have been hijacked as a means to seperate the haves from the have nots. My grandparents were two of the most educted people you'd ever meet, married 70 years, and neither went to college. How? They talked, the listened, they were both very well read and did many things within the community. They compromised. Both worked with their hands, my grandmother was a master at crafts and kitting, and my grandfather did lots of tinkering with various things, from old vaccum cleaners to bicycles to cars. It's a shame that people like them would have a very difficult time finding a place in today's society.

Not to mention the work ethic has changed. Here, we're now indoctrinated from a very young age to identify with work. In other developed countries, work is secondary to your life.

I'll leave everyone with two links: In the second article, I don't much care for the teacher/teacher union bashing part, but many other points he makes are worth contemplating.

http://www.timesunio...-or-6419711.php

https://www.psycholo...errated-product


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#15
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All I know is that something needs to be done for those of us in debt who are being killed with ridiculous interest charges. The nerve of the government to use students as profit centers.
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#16
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View Postgpsnavigator, on 03 August 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

GOL - glad you had a great college experience. Really, I don't knock it. We're going to need people in nursing, doctors, science, engineering, etc.) But I think we have to get away from this notion that it is the path everyone should want to follow. (see Nittany's and WBs post). Worse, society often groups and shames those who aren't in some kind of "professional" track and starting with a good brand name college.

CP - educated is a relative term. I think some people are good at what they do workwise, but not necessarily much else. Today, the term educated, along with the term success have been hijacked as a means to seperate the haves from the have nots. My grandparents were two of the most educted people you'd ever meet, married 70 years, and neither went to college. How? They talked, the listened, they were both very well read and did many things within the community. They compromised. Both worked with their hands, my grandmother was a master at crafts and kitting, and my grandfather did lots of tinkering with various things, from old vaccum cleaners to bicycles to cars. It's a shame that people like them would have a very difficult time finding a place in today's society.

Not to mention the work ethic has changed. Here, we're now indoctrinated from a very young age to identify with work. In other developed countries, work is secondary to your life.

I'll leave everyone with two links: In the second article, I don't much care for the teacher/teacher union bashing part, but many other points he makes are worth contemplating.

http://www.timesunio...-or-6419711.php

https://www.psycholo...errated-product

I wasn't able to access the Times Union article. However, I saw the Psychology Today article. I am favorable to some of these solutions, but not all. I agree that we should do away with one-size-fits-all education, and that STEM is oversold. There are some things I disagree with:

1. We should NOT do away with PE classes. We have an obesity problem in this country, so we need PE classes as part of the solution. We also need to cut down on junk food and do other things, but cutting PE would probably hurt the problem.
2. We should keep foreign language but teach it from an early age (Pre-K). There are so many people who don't/can't speak English, so it would be good to break through that communication barrier with such people.
3. I won't speak further on tenure.
4. I won't address the online teaching because we're on the same page with teacher's unions.
5. I strongly disagree with the comment about college professors. My father, and most of the college professors I know, love both the teaching and the research. And actually, depending on the class, the teaching and the research feed off of each other. Once again, I go to a liberal arts college where you wouldn't last very long if you don't like teaching.

View Postweatherbowl, on 03 August 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

The article points out that millennials have an average net worth of $10,000 which is down from $18000 from previous generation. The millennials average college debt is $35000 up from $18000 in previous generation. I guess that explains the lack of savings. To me the biggest problem this generation faces is that student debt. If you are going to college for a certain field of study and you can justify paying big bucks for it, so be it. However, if you don't know what you are going to do or you are taking a field of study that is difficult to find work in or simply doesn't pay that much, shouldn't you consider a cheaper school, at least for the first 2 years? I am far from college age but I can't help but think, lets see, I go to college and I come out owing $35000 or do I get a job for four years and save, maybe $15000. That puts me $50000 ahead of the game. At the same time maybe I can go to school at night and after 4 years have my 2 year degree. Then go to a state school for my bachelors with my $15000 and whatever else it takes. I'm just thinking out loud here, trying to come up with alternatives.
Do good in high school, that scholarship money is like money from working a job, get all you can whenever you can.

Once again, I'm a bit biased because I came into college not exactly knowing what I want to do in life. I don't think it's about coming into college knowing/not knowing what you want to do in life. A brother of one of my brother's friends was a pre-med person at St. John's University from the beginning, and now I think he has over $100,000 in debt. I took awhile to figure out what I want to do, but I will be graduating with $20,000 or so in debt. Something doesn't fit here.
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People have the idea that a teacher cannot be let go after tenured. Not so. Even if you are tenured, if the department you teach in has to let a teacher go, the one with the least amount of years is let go, tenured or not.
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View Postweathergeek87, on 03 August 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

All I know is that something needs to be done for those of us in debt who are being killed with ridiculous interest charges. The nerve of the government to use students as profit centers.

Geek - student debt is a root cause of many problems facing new grads. However, you knew those loans needed to be paid back with interest at some point. Not sure why after taking the money and agreeing to interest terms you would expect a break.

And many in my age group (late 40s) feel that many millennials have a sense of entitlement, that the rules don't apply to,them or exceptions should be made. Not saying that that describes you, but this post does not help that perception.

#19
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Maybe more time should be spent in HS teaching finance and the ramifications of having debt. Using college as a real life example might scare people into either staying in state or going to a community college. I went to college for 5 years and half of that was community college. Did not affect me negatively in terms of getting a job. Then I got a job with a company who paid 95% of my grad school.
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#20
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View Postcarribeanpirate, on 03 August 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:



Geek - student debt is a root cause of many problems facing new grads. However, you knew those loans needed to be paid back with interest at some point. Not sure why after taking the money and agreeing to interest terms you would expect a break.

And many in my age group (late 40s) feel that many millennials have a sense of entitlement, that the rules don't apply to,them or exceptions should be made. Not saying that that describes you, but this post does not help that perception.

So do you think that all of us in our 20's deserve to have the interest rates doubled on us randomly like it did last year? Many of the interest rates on our loans went up. Had I known that was going to happen, do you think I would have bothered taking out the loan that now requires 8% interest? I think not.
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