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#81
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View Postweathergeek87, on 30 March 2018 - 12:38 AM, said:

Advertisers pulling from Laura Ingrahams show due to this David Hogg commie
I've been trying hard to cut this kid a little slack given what he and his school community went through. And some of what the kids in general are asking us to consider is not unreasonable.
Having said that, I do find him very snarky, and frankly egotistical, characteristics that probably defined him even before this tragedy. First time I saw him was on Bill Maher's show and I wasn't impressed, and I kind of sat there and cringed because I know I'm supposed to support this kid and his cause, especially given my line of work. But the way he speaks down to people and about people, and goes about it cussing away is not any way to win friends to his cause or the cause in general. It almost seems to be more about his ambitions and his ideology as opposed to being a reasoned messenger who can speak about an important issue from personal experience.
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#82
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That kid's been a disgusting attention-whore since the moment the first shots were fired at that school. He has one objective and one objective only...trying to stretch his 15 minutes for as long as he can.
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#83
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The issue I have with all of these social justice movements is their propensity to produce some very unlikeable and unrelatable people. It's often not the issue itself that irks me. We have David Hogg as the new face of the gun control movement. If it's the #me too movement, then we're looking at Kirsten Gillibrand, Oprah, and Megan Kelly. Black Lives Matter gives us Al Sharpton.

My other issue is the tendency of these same movements (with media help), to move to cast all members of x group as racists, mysoginists, haters, murders, etc. Whatever the beef is, if you're cast into a position to re-shape the narrative and change policy, you have to expect, and even embrace robust debate and dissent, irregardless of your personal experiences.

And this cuts both ways. I hold similar thoughts on people like Wayne Lapierre, Sean Hannity, or many of the clowns and ex-clowns of the Trump administration.
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#84
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BREAKING NEWS! A WHITE NRA MEMBER HAS SHOT INSIDE YOUTUBE HEADQUARTERS.

Sorry,it was a vegan female in the state with one of the strictest gun control laws. Did it because YouTube took down her videos for being too racy. Once again another shooting NRA has nothing to do with, but they are the problem



#85
carribeanpirate

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View Postnyrangers1022, on 05 April 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

BREAKING NEWS! A WHITE NRA MEMBER HAS SHOT INSIDE YOUTUBE HEADQUARTERS.

Sorry,it was a vegan female in the state with one of the strictest gun control laws. Did it because YouTube took down her videos for being too racy. Once again another shooting NRA has nothing to do with, but they are the problem

I think you are bending the point people are making. The NRA has every politician in their pocket with their lobby efforts, making common sense gun laws nearly impossible to pass. Nobody is accusing the NRA of pulling the trigger, people are accusing them of blocking laws that will allow other people to pull the trigger.

I am not anti gun at all and the NRA has mastered the system we currently live in. Until we change lobbist laws and limit their power, the NRA will continue to be a lightning rod.

#86
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View Postgpsnavigator, on 31 March 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

The issue I have with all of these social justice movements is their propensity to produce some very unlikeable and unrelatable people. It's often not the issue itself that irks me. We have David Hogg as the new face of the gun control movement. If it's the #me too movement, then we're looking at Kirsten Gillibrand, Oprah, and Megan Kelly. Black Lives Matter gives us Al Sharpton.

My other issue is the tendency of these same movements (with media help), to move to cast all members of x group as racists, mysoginists, haters, murders, etc. Whatever the beef is, if you're cast into a position to re-shape the narrative and change policy, you have to expect, and even embrace robust debate and dissent, irregardless of your personal experiences.

And this cuts both ways. I hold similar thoughts on people like Wayne Lapierre, Sean Hannity, or many of the clowns and ex-clowns of the Trump administration.

Is the issue with just the people themselves though, or the ideologies that these people support? Or some of both?

I post this question in light of the 50th anniversary of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s death, which passed this week. Dr. King had a 33% approval rating at one point--less popular than most of the people currently are (with the possible exception of Al Sharpton): http://news.gallup.c...an-before.aspx. Yes he had his personal flaws and those flaws are well-documented, but those flaws for the most part were revealed after his death, when his popularity has ironically skyrocketed. While he was alive though, I'm led to think that his poor popularity was because his ideology was so extremely opposed to what most of America wanted. Hence, why segregationalist George Wallace was one of America's 10 most admired men in 1967 while MLK was deeply unpopular.

Now in some cases, I think that the issue is with the people. Gillibrand and Sharpton strike me as opportunists, and Gillibrand also strikes me as someone who is more about political expediency than any set of values. But I wonder how much of the likability issue you talk about also has to do with ideology. I don't have the answer to that question, but it's a question worth posing.
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#87
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View Postthundersleet, on 07 April 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

Is the issue with just the people themselves though, or the ideologies that these people support? Or some of both?

I post this question in light of the 50th anniversary of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s death, which passed this week. Dr. King had a 33% approval rating at one point--less popular than most of the people currently are (with the possible exception of Al Sharpton): http://news.gallup.c...an-before.aspx. Yes he had his personal flaws and those flaws are well-documented, but those flaws for the most part were revealed after his death, when his popularity has ironically skyrocketed. While he was alive though, I'm led to think that his poor popularity was because his ideology was so extremely opposed to what most of America wanted. Hence, why segregationalist George Wallace was one of America's 10 most admired men in 1967 while MLK was deeply unpopular.

Now in some cases, I think that the issue is with the people. Gillibrand and Sharpton strike me as opportunists, and Gillibrand also strikes me as someone who is more about political expediency than any set of values. But I wonder how much of the likability issue you talk about also has to do with ideology. I don't have the answer to that question, but it's a question worth posing.
It is a bit of both I suppose. I find Gillibrand's fire breathing brand of feminism hostile to both men and women, and unfortunately there are a number like her in both politics and media who have picked up on it and carried the torch. Same can be said about some members of groups like BLM and those who advocate for undocumented immigrats and dreamers, as well as for stricter gun controls.

Philisophically, on a more general level, I can appreciate where these groups are coming from. But I'm quickly put off by their tactics, which quickly take on a zero tolerance, authoritarian tone that lacks the much needed nuances, and aims to shut down all discussion deemed arbitrarily out of bounds by any means necessary. They've been able to put themselves out there as their own shield, immune from criticism, and free to drive a narrative and bully all of us into positions we may not necessarily always agree with or that are even correct. And now the latest inductee into that hall of fame is David Hogg. I'm sure you saw what happened between him and Laura Ingraham.

The so-called liberals like to drive another narrative of "facts matter". So I invite you to peruse the following Pulitzer Prize winning report on fatal police shootings, paying particular attention to numbers of unarmed shootings by race.

https://www.washingt...shootings-2017/

And by the way, this is not me coddling up to the Trump administration and hard core conservatism. Far from it. My opinions of the Trump administration have not changed from the generally negative views I have of it. This is simply and concisely, my critique and my annoyances of the knowable problems in the progressive movement.

Sometimes I think this is not a Left vs. Right, or a Liberal vs. Conservative fight. But rather enlightenment vs. ignorance, realism vs. idealism, narcissism vs. pragmatism, authoritarians vs. moderates. And unfortunately all of the good adjectives in that list are losing.

I know I'm throwing a lot of terms and depth into this, so if you're lingering around, this might give you something to ponder about for a few days.
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#88
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View Postgpsnavigator, on 12 April 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:


It is a bit of both I suppose. I find Gillibrand's fire breathing brand of feminism hostile to both men and women, and unfortunately there are a number like her in both politics and media who have picked up on it and carried the torch. Same can be said about some members of groups like BLM and those who advocate for undocumented immigrats and dreamers, as well as for stricter gun controls.

Philisophically, on a more general level, I can appreciate where these groups are coming from. But I'm quickly put off by their tactics, which quickly take on a zero tolerance, authoritarian tone that lacks the much needed nuances, and aims to shut down all discussion deemed arbitrarily out of bounds by any means necessary. They've been able to put themselves out there as their own shield, immune from criticism, and free to drive a narrative and bully all of us into positions we may not necessarily always agree with or that are even correct. And now the latest inductee into that hall of fame is David Hogg. I'm sure you saw what happened between him and Laura Ingraham.

The so-called liberals like to drive another narrative of "facts matter". So I invite you to peruse the following Pulitzer Prize winning report on fatal police shootings, paying particular attention to numbers of unarmed shootings by race.

https://www.washingt...shootings-2017/

And by the way, this is not me coddling up to the Trump administration and hard core conservatism. Far from it. My opinions of the Trump administration have not changed from the generally negative views I have of it. This is simply and concisely, my critique and my annoyances of the knowable problems in the progressive movement.

Sometimes I think this is not a Left vs. Right, or a Liberal vs. Conservative fight. But rather enlightenment vs. ignorance, realism vs. idealism, narcissism vs. pragmatism, authoritarians vs. moderates. And unfortunately all of the good adjectives in that list are losing.

I know I'm throwing a lot of terms and depth into this, so if you're lingering around, this might give you something to ponder about for a few days.
So according to that report, you're more likely to be shot by police if you are white?
no b.s., but I never would have thought the numbers were double that of being black.
wow
so tell me how MSM isn't trying to start a race war?

#89
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View Postvascudave, on 13 April 2018 - 07:26 AM, said:

So according to that report, you're more likely to be shot by police if you are white?
no b.s., but I never would have thought the numbers were double that of being black.
wow
so tell me how MSM isn't trying to start a race war?

The counter argument will center on proportionality. For example of black people make up x% of the total population but y% of total deaths. Anyone can create a statistic to fit the argument.

#90
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View Postvascudave, on 13 April 2018 - 07:26 AM, said:

So according to that report, you're more likely to be shot by police if you are white?
no b.s., but I never would have thought the numbers were double that of being black.
wow
so tell me how MSM isn't trying to start a race war?

View Postcarribeanpirate, on 13 April 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

The counter argument will center on proportionality. For example of black people make up x% of the total population but y% of total deaths. Anyone can create a statistic to fit the argument.
See, there's the nuance of it. I actually used my experiences in mathematics and statistics to briefly analyze those numbers, and drill down a little bit. Proportionality could be a factor, given more of the population is white. I also found that a slightly higher percentage of African Americans killed by police were unarmed, but I wouldn't called it dramatically different (5-6% white versus 8-9% for blacks, depending on the year). So that's something I suppose, but I'm not sure it justifies the race wars that have clearly been ignited as a direct result of this issue. Bottom line is unarmed people are shot by police every year, and they're are a myriad of circumstances and other un-studied factors that can lead up to that.
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#91
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View Postgpsnavigator, on 13 April 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:



See, there's the nuance of it. I actually used my experiences in mathematics and statistics to briefly analyze those numbers, and drill down a little bit. Proportionality could be a factor, given more of the population is white. I also found that a slightly higher percentage of African Americans killed by police were unarmed, but I wouldn't called it dramatically different (5-6% white versus 8-9% for blacks, depending on the year). So that's something I suppose, but I'm not sure it justifies the race wars that have clearly been ignited as a direct result of this issue. Bottom line is unarmed people are shot by police every year, and they're are a myriad of circumstances and other un-studied factors that can lead up to that.

I agree with your analysis. I looked at NJ stats. More than half the people killed were black, but blacks are not half the total population. Like I said, statistics can be spun in many ways.

#92
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View Postcarribeanpirate, on 13 April 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

I agree with your analysis. I looked at NJ stats. More than half the people killed were black, but blacks are not half the total population. Like I said, statistics can be spun in many ways.
The next piece that would be worth looking into is this idea of gun culture. We are well trained to view gun culture primarily through the lens of it being mostly a white rural identity politics thing. But would the data really back that up? Based on what I read in the Star Ledger regarding places like Newark and Paterson, as well as what is known to be true about Chicago, I would have to guess the answer may be a no, or at least an unclear answer. I'm not sure if data sets exist that attempt to track gun possession (including legal AND illegal guns) by geographic area and race, but it would be worth looking into if such numbers are out there.
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