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ASSUALT ALLEGATIONS


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#61
carribeanpirate

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 thundersleet, on 05 December 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

I pretty much agree with you, believe it or not!

There are some people who had the Sandusky thing as their main excuse, but to me it felt like most of the fan base either pointed to his record, player abuse (which I'm not sure is actual abuse or just anger over his not being a touchy feely "players coach" as you said), or used the Sandusky thing as an excuse for the other shortcomings.

Now I think that because of questions surrounding Sandusky stuff (especially in light of #MeToo as well as a settlement Tennessee reached not long ago on sexual assault cases), I don't think he should've even been considered in the first place. There are other coaches out there who are also worthy possibilities and don't have the questions Schiano has. Or at least not the same questions. For example, as much as I think it would be fun to see Rex Ryan coach in the college ranks (I'm sure he can charm 16 and 17 year olds), he has his own questions.

There were no questions about Schiano's background before the fans made it an issue. By all accounts, he had no knowledge of what was going on. If guilt by association is the reason, there are many coaches from the Penn State tree that should be removed from their roles.

#62
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hes deranged
you know what they say al
actions(and pictures) speak louder than words.
the nerve and hypocrisy on this guy

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#63
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View Postvascudave, on 07 December 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

hes deranged
you know what they say al
actions(and pictures) speak louder than words.
the nerve and hypocrisy on this guy

http://www.cnn.com/2...test/index.html
I'm going to pump the brakes here a bit and again take a nuanced view. Franken is probably more along the lines of having acted like an oaf as opposed to being an actual sexual predator. But righteous feminists like Gillibrand don't seem to want to acknowledge or discuss that difference, instead remaining steadfast on the authoritarian, purity platform and damn anyone who steps or speaks out of line. A few men have done horrible things and need to be held to account. May others have done stupid things, but not to the level of having lives ruined. Franken falls into the later category. Intelligent and sane people can acknowledge and accept both.

I would also wonder if people cheerleading for Franken's demise are ready to call on Trump to resign based on allegations?

And, Kirsten Gillibrand. Not a fan. I hope she loses early and badly in the 2020 primary. I think a lot of this started with her and now the Democratic establishment trips all over themselves on the way out the door to appease her.
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#64
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View Postgpsnavigator, on 07 December 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

I'm going to pump the brakes here a bit and again take a nuanced view. Franken is probably more along the lines of having acted like an oaf as opposed to being an actual sexual predator. But righteous feminists like Gillibrand don't seem to want to acknowledge or discuss that difference, instead remaining steadfast on the authoritarian, purity platform and damn anyone who steps or speaks out of line. A few men have done horrible things and need to be held to account. May others have done stupid things, but not to the level of having lives ruined. Franken falls into the later category. Intelligent and sane people can acknowledge and accept both.

I would also wonder if people cheerleading for Franken's demise are ready to call on Trump to resign based on allegations?

And, Kirsten Gillibrand. Not a fan. I hope she loses early and badly in the 2020 primary. I think a lot of this started with her and now the Democratic establishment trips all over themselves on the way out the door to appease her.

Lets be honest here. Al Franken is a pawn in this entire game. Originally the Dems took a wait and see approach, However, in my opinion, they changed tactics in order to claim some moral high ground in the upcoming election cycle. With Roy Moore now appearing to have a lead and a possible victory in the special election, the Dems can now proclaim that they are the party that has dealt harshly with their predators, while the Republicans sweep it under the rug. Its all smoke and mirrors for elections. And at the same time Democrats are touting that line, they will have Bill Clinton showing up in key states where help is needed to win.

This whole thing is a bit overblown. Franken is an oaf as you say given what has come out. I will leave it there in case more info comes to light. Its a dangerous world, where simply accusing someone can ruin their careers and life, proof is no longer needed. This by no means victim blaming, but there needs to be some standard of proof before accusations of any wrongdoing becomes legitimate proof of wrongdoing.

#65
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View Postcarribeanpirate, on 10 December 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Lets be honest here. Al Franken is a pawn in this entire game. Originally the Dems took a wait and see approach, However, in my opinion, they changed tactics in order to claim some moral high ground in the upcoming election cycle. With Roy Moore now appearing to have a lead and a possible victory in the special election, the Dems can now proclaim that they are the party that has dealt harshly with their predators, while the Republicans sweep it under the rug. Its all smoke and mirrors for elections. And at the same time Democrats are touting that line, they will have Bill Clinton showing up in key states where help is needed to win.

This whole thing is a bit overblown. Franken is an oaf as you say given what has come out. I will leave it there in case more info comes to light. Its a dangerous world, where simply accusing someone can ruin their careers and life, proof is no longer needed. This by no means victim blaming, but there needs to be some standard of proof before accusations of any wrongdoing becomes legitimate proof of wrongdoing.

Boy that didnt take long. Like I said, these folks are so predictable. The resisters need to understand that anyone with half a brain can predict their next shenanigan. And lookee, lookee.....My Senator, empty suit Cory Booker, is leading the charge to get Trump to resign. So predictable.....

#66
thundersleet

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View Postgpsnavigator, on 07 December 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

I'm going to pump the brakes here a bit and again take a nuanced view. Franken is probably more along the lines of having acted like an oaf as opposed to being an actual sexual predator. But righteous feminists like Gillibrand don't seem to want to acknowledge or discuss that difference, instead remaining steadfast on the authoritarian, purity platform and damn anyone who steps or speaks out of line. A few men have done horrible things and need to be held to account. May others have done stupid things, but not to the level of having lives ruined. Franken falls into the later category. Intelligent and sane people can acknowledge and accept both.

I would also wonder if people cheerleading for Franken's demise are ready to call on Trump to resign based on allegations?

And, Kirsten Gillibrand. Not a fan. I hope she loses early and badly in the 2020 primary. I think a lot of this started with her and now the Democratic establishment trips all over themselves on the way out the door to appease her.

I'm not a fan of Gillibrand either.

I've been following her career ever since she was appointed by Governor David Paterson to fill Hillary's seat after she became Secretary of State. She was in a more moderate district in the House before being appointed to her Senate seat, and she was...a moderate! But now that it's convenient to be a liberal champion of some sort since she is in a more leftist state like NY, now she's more left! She strikes me as a political opportunist, and I'm very wary of her.

Now I think she was right on calling on Franken to resign (though waiting a few weeks makes me wonder about her true motives), and she's right on calling on Trump to resign (though once again, questioning motives here).

Ultimately, you would think that photographic evidence (a la Franken) or video evidence (Trump's "grab em by the pussy") would be sufficient. But people hesitate or sweep those things under the carpet.
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#67
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View Postthundersleet, on 11 December 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

I'm not a fan of Gillibrand either.

I've been following her career ever since she was appointed by Governor David Paterson to fill Hillary's seat after she became Secretary of State. She was in a more moderate district in the House before being appointed to her Senate seat, and she was...a moderate! But now that it's convenient to be a liberal champion of some sort since she is in a more leftist state like NY, now she's more left! She strikes me as a political opportunist, and I'm very wary of her.

Now I think she was right on calling on Franken to resign (though waiting a few weeks makes me wonder about her true motives), and she's right on calling on Trump to resign (though once again, questioning motives here).

Ultimately, you would think that photographic evidence (a la Franken) or video evidence (Trump's "grab em by the pussy") would be sufficient. But people hesitate or sweep those things under the carpet.
People hesitate because neither the picture of Franken or the audio of Trump taken by themselves represent evidence of any kind of crime, although I would say the audio of Trump is far worse and certainly should make people raise some eyebrows. Because that picture of Franken isn't really a real grope in the eyes of many, but rather a crude joke.

As far as Kirsten Gillibrand, yep, interesting play. Go and sell Franken down the river as the sacrificial limb, so she and a few others can make the play for Trump. And Franken, it's easy to argue, was the least concerning and the most cooperative of all of the accused. So I disagree with those who were so fast to call for his head. And judging from top reader comments I read on some NY Times articles, there are many liberal Democrats out there who feel the same way.

So I too am very skeptical of Gillibrand. She reminds me of Claire Underwood from the show House of Cards.
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#68
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View Postthundersleet, on 11 December 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:


Ultimately, you would think that photographic evidence (a la Franken) or video evidence (Trump's "grab em by the pussy") would be sufficient.


Apples & oranges. Photographic evidence of someone caught in the act of inappropriate behavior and an audio tape of someone talking about something that may or may not have actually happened are two completely different things.
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#69
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View PostMike_The_Golfer, on 12 December 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:




Apples & oranges. Photographic evidence of someone caught in the act of inappropriate behavior and an audio tape of someone talking about something that may or may not have actually happened are two completely different things.

sure is apples to oranges, one is (sure dopey) actually photographic evidence) the other just words of what I did or could do.


one could say franken was actually guilty of what trump says he could do as being a famous person.

this whole thing is outta control imo.

again, looking at the past with 2017/2018 eyes/views.

if so bill Clinton needs to be imprisoned, no?

outta control now.

#70
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View Postgpsnavigator, on 11 December 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

People hesitate because neither the picture of Franken or the audio of Trump taken by themselves represent evidence of any kind of crime, although I would say the audio of Trump is far worse and certainly should make people raise some eyebrows. Because that picture of Franken isn't really a real grope in the eyes of many, but rather a crude joke.

As far as Kirsten Gillibrand, yep, interesting play. Go and sell Franken down the river as the sacrificial limb, so she and a few others can make the play for Trump. And Franken, it's easy to argue, was the least concerning and the most cooperative of all of the accused. So I disagree with those who were so fast to call for his head. And judging from top reader comments I read on some NY Times articles, there are many liberal Democrats out there who feel the same way.

So I too am very skeptical of Gillibrand. She reminds me of Claire Underwood from the show House of Cards.

And all of this is why I said Franken is a pawn in the Democrat's chess game. By forcing Franken out, they turn the spotlight on Trump and say "your acts are equal to what Al Franken and John Conyers did. We forced them to resign, therefore, you should resign". If he does not resign (and we know he wont), they claim the moral high ground, which began when they paraded out 3 women yesterday asking for a Congressional investigation. This is all a political game. The Russian investigation did not work as quickly as Dems anticipated, so its time to move on to a different tactic.

#71
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 carribeanpirate, on 12 December 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:



And all of this is why I said Franken is a pawn in the Democrat's chess game. By forcing Franken out, they turn the spotlight on Trump and say "your acts are equal to what Al Franken and John Conyers did. We forced them to resign, therefore, you should resign". If he does not resign (and we know he wont), they claim the moral high ground, which began when they paraded out 3 women yesterday asking for a Congressional investigation. This is all a political game. The Russian investigation did not work as quickly as Dems anticipated, so its time to move on to a different tactic.

100% agreed
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#72
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#73
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View Postweathergeek87, on 13 December 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

This is exactly what has been boiling my blood and has actually made me take 3 giant steps back in terms of following current events/politics. Once you are accused -- your life and career is over, regardless if the accusations have any merit or not. Seems like anyone can just come out and accuse anyone of anything, as long as it's made public, the wonderful media will immediately brand the person being accused as a rapist. Forget your time in court, the media will try you and charge you regardless.
Yeah, I have to agree. I believe there is truth to most of the accusations made recently, but I don't believe every single thing alleged in every case is necessarily completely true. There is always going to be an element of he said / she said (or he said /he said), especially with old allegations and the bias that our culture of paranoia creates around this issue.

The problem is also that we are expected to believe a claim, or two, or twenty of them, none of which can directly be proven or disproven. And I think for some, myself included, it puts us in a bit of a bind. Especially when any other claims against someone (robbery, corruption, etc.), are going to require proof beyond a reasonable doubt. So, this is definitely a tough one.

Another issue is differing definitions of what constitutes sexual assault, sexual harassment, etc. That's almost become a matter of opinion in some circles which is huge problem. One thing I am certain of, Al Franken should not be lumped in with Roy Moore, Harvey Weinstein, or, dare I say, Trump. We need context and perspective around this issue. Otherwise, you risk the backlash affect, trivializing the issue, which hurts actual victims (and I know an actual victim, and she agrees).

I think you would also find evidence that sexual violence has actually fallen off pretty steeply since the 80's and 90's. So while we are witnessing the inquisition of a few powerful men, by no means should it be implied that this behavior is natural to men, or defines men. So the claim that we are living in a rape culture, or culture defined by the patriarchy is quite a reach.

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