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icehater
Here it is for anyone that missed it. The play wasn't even close and the ump ruled the runner safe on the 27th out of a perfect game. If MLB has any guts at all it overturns this call and gives Tiger pitcher Galarraga the perfect game. Ths call is as bad as the call made last year on Joe Mauer. And what's worse is the ump had plenty of time to get close to First base to be in much better position to make the call and didn't. He stayed far away from the base instead and made what will go down as one of the worst calls in the history of sports and will be forever remembered because it spoiled a perfect game. What a shame if MLB lets this blatant mistake stand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpL-PPX9bQ

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball...o_jim_joyc.html
metfan4life
What a horrible call. I can't believe the ump called him safe.
Ehop
Obviously a terrible call, but will say was impressed that the umpire went and talked to the young pitcher afterwards.
I know its the right thing to do, but how many people really would have done that.
metfan4life
According to ESPN, the call might be reviewed.
rgwp96
biggest problem i had was not givng the pitcher the edge in this circumstance to begin with. Than you clearly see he beat him by almost 2 steps just makes it worse. even the baserunner thought he was out. I highly doubt it changes to a perfect game. Only thing I can see it changed to his a no hitter with an error being called on the pitcher.
metfan4life
Jim Joyce talking about his call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EmEiFgDf5I
vascudave
top blown calls

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/lists/Top_ref...;photo=11258255
icehater
QUOTE (rgwp96 @ Jun 3 2010, 11:53 AM) *
biggest problem i had was not givng the pitcher the edge in this circumstance to begin with. Than you clearly see he beat him by almost 2 steps just makes it worse. even the baserunner thought he was out. I highly doubt it changes to a perfect game. Only thing I can see it changed to his a no hitter with an error being called on the pitcher.


I watched that replay closely and if you look you'll see that the pitcher's second leg is ahead of the runners leg and is very close to the bag. IMO the umpire thought the that leg was the runners. Otherwise there is no explanation for such a bad call. But then again what explanation was ever offered by the umpire for Mauers blown call that was fair by two feet. We'll have the typical replay vs no replay rule to wade thru again and the normal fights about bad umpiring being a part of the game. Bad umpiring is getting to out of hand now not because it's worsening but because technology exposes it in seconds. What will always bother me more than a sport not taking advantage of technolog to clean blatant mistakes up is the fact that umpires will not over-rule each other. I'm sure the home plate ump and possibly another ump saw the mistake but rather than huddle and talk about it they stand there like blind mice and let a bad call go without even a discussion. How MLB allows that to constantly happen while they allow a check swing strike to be appealed on just about every opportunity (and overturned on most) is beyond me. You have confliction in allowing a strike to be overturned by another ump but those same umps w'ont even huddle over the most important call of a game. It defies logic.
FreezingDrizzle
QUOTE (icehater @ Jun 3 2010, 01:48 PM) *
I watched that replay closely and if you look you'll see that the pitcher's second leg is ahead of the runners leg and is very close to the bag. IMO the umpire thought the that leg was the runners. Otherwise there is no explanation for such a bad call. But then again what explanation was ever offered by the umpire for Mauers blown call that was fair by two feet. We'll have the typical replay vs no replay rule to wade thru again and the normal fights about bad umpiring being a part of the game. Bad umpiring is getting to out of hand now not because it's worsening but because technology exposes it in seconds. What will always bother me more than a sport not taking advantage of technolog to clean blatant mistakes up is the fact that umpires will not over-rule each other. I'm sure the home plate ump and possibly another ump saw the mistake but rather than huddle and talk about it they stand there like blind mice and let a bad call go without even a discussion. How MLB allows that to constantly happen while they allow a check swing strike to be appealed on just about every opportunity (and overturned on most) is beyond me. You have confliction in allowing a strike to be overturned by another ump but those same umps w'ont even huddle over the most important call of a game. It defies logic.


Agreed. The best solution is to overturn it right on the spot.

BTW, just announced: they are NOT overturning it.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2010/06/02/d...ect-game-blown/
Kelli013
Just a shame for Gallarraga. The ump was more concerned with the catch (look where he's looking, not at the first base line. To see Miggy's face is priceless. I feel the home plate ump or the booth should call a questionable call, as to a huge error of judgement. I also have a issue with the batter, he looked surprised, not that he would of argued the call, but don't believe he was hitting to ruin a history making game. Everyone knows he was out, but I don't understand Detroit not challenging the play. I feel he had such pressure and a pitchers making it for a first play out would go to the runner 10 times out of 3. I don't believe in replay for base hits or strikes vs. balls, but I think this year has shown us a back-up system for critical calls must be looked into.
metfan4life
At least he received a Corvette lol

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...rn=mlb%2C245508
satellite_eyes
By all accounts Jim Joyce is a very good ump. He made a horrible call at the worst possible time. It was nice to see the DET fans cheer him. That was very classy. It hurts for everyone involved but it happens. I don't see the point of throwing him under the bus. Everyone handled it pretty well. I'm glad they didn't go back and change anything. You really can't mess with the integrity of the game. And as far as instant replay, the game is too long as it is.
robbbs
QUOTE (satellite_eyes @ Jun 4 2010, 12:27 PM) *
By all accounts Jim Joyce is a very good ump. He made a horrible call at the worst possible time. It was nice to see the DET fans cheer him. That was very classy. It hurts for everyone involved but it happens. I don't see the point of throwing him under the bus. Everyone handled it pretty well. I'm glad they didn't go back and change anything. You really can't mess with the integrity of the game. And as far as instant replay, the game is too long as it is.


I understand your viewpoint but I have a very different opinion. If by integrity of the game it means never changing anything about the game, as if it's some sacred cow (it's not; it's just a game), then count me out. There was a time that MLB was a whites only game. I think the "integrity" of the game was nonsensical at that time. What about the reversal of the George Brett homerun over-rule? What about the introduction of the DH? What about the lowering of the pitching mound, juiced up baseballs, etc. , etc., etc. There is an appeal to the baseball commisioner option for a reason. The call needs to be reversed and I am 100% certain it will be. The only question is when. Hopefully, it will be done quickly and soon, and not decades from now. BTW, there are plenty of no-hitters and perfect games which were over-ruled years later. So much for the game's integrity; a most over-used and misunderstood element.
vascudave
why wasn't it over ruled on the field?? as you all know i'm not a fan of baseball, but this is plain silly. EVERYONE knew he was safe, but a bad call was made. huddle up and come up with the correct call. another reason why (IMO rolleyes.gif ) baseball sinks!

the main thing that has come out of this is the quality of the character of the 2 main people involved. galarraga is a fantastic sport and that should be the main story in this, put him on a pedistal for showing extreme sportsmanship!!!! he didn't throw a hissie fit as many of these rich boys do for minor things. this was for a no hitter and he remained calm and professional! standing ovation for him!! the second is joyce, he didn't talk around it, make excuses or any b.s.! he made a mistake and owned up to it!! i couldn't believe the press conference. two great professionals, two great people....and that should be the story for our youth thumbsup.png
jfar57
In some respects this was horrible for Galarraga, for Joyce and for MLB. In some it is a blessing.

Galarraga is going to be remembered forever as part of a trivia question for who threw the only "28 batter perfect game." He has handled this with incredible grace and is getting more recognition for this feat due to the circumstances. Quick test, how many of you can name the pitchers of the last 4 perfect games in MLB prior to the blown call.

This will, without a doubt, lead to some additional instant replay for sure. I think that will be a good thing and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to make it much like the NFL. Give the manager a single challenge per 9 innings. Allow the umpires "booth review" in 9th inning or for the last out of a game, but limit the impact as if it was a "grounds rule". On an HR call, it either is or is not a HR and can be treated as such. On a safe/out call, if the call is reversed, the player obtains that bag (or is out) and any other baserunners retreat to the base the last touched.
Mike_The_Golfer
QUOTE (jfar57 @ Jun 4 2010, 11:40 AM) *
In some respects this was horrible for Galarraga, for Joyce and for MLB. In some it is a blessing.

Galarraga is going to be remembered forever as part of a trivia question for who threw the only "28 batter perfect game." He has handled this with incredible grace and is getting more recognition for this feat due to the circumstances. Quick test, how many of you can name the pitchers of the last 4 perfect games in MLB prior to the blown call.
This will, without a doubt, lead to some additional instant replay for sure. I think that will be a good thing and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to make it much like the NFL. Give the manager a single challenge per 9 innings. Allow the umpires "booth review" in 9th inning or for the last out of a game, but limit the impact as if it was a "grounds rule". On an HR call, it either is or is not a HR and can be treated as such. On a safe/out call, if the call is reversed, the player obtains that bag (or is out) and any other baserunners retreat to the base the last touched.



Roy Halladay, Dallas Braden (obvious 2), Mark Beuhrle and (guessing on this one) Randy Johnson - although there may have been one between his and Beuhrle's.
icehater
QUOTE (satellite_eyes @ Jun 4 2010, 07:27 AM) *
By all accounts Jim Joyce is a very good ump. He made a horrible call at the worst possible time. It was nice to see the DET fans cheer him. That was very classy. It hurts for everyone involved but it happens. I don't see the point of throwing him under the bus. Everyone handled it pretty well. I'm glad they didn't go back and change anything. You really can't mess with the integrity of the game. And as far as instant replay, the game is too long as it is.


Can't agree on this at all. When an ump blows a call that is not even close, such as this one or the Cuzzi call on Mauer last year, or the absurd and laughable Jeter HR call or the call on Cano when two Yankees were on one base (note that all 3 of those calls were pro Yankee, imagine if all went the correct way or the incredible outcry from NY fans had all had happened for an opponent and against the Yankees), the integrity of the game has been interfered with. In the case of the two playoff calls where Cuzzi misses a ball landing well inside the line and he's standing 8-10 feet away you have to wonder if he was taking a bribe on the game or he was blind or had something in his eye at the exact worst time, because there's no other explanation. And if it were either of the latter two why not ask for help? He couldn't possibly have seen anything in the stands either. He was looking at a foul line, a dark backdrop of the wall in left, dirt, the foul line and a glove. All of these things gave him a perfect backfdrop to see the ball land fair but he saw it land foul somehow and never explained why. The perfect game screw-up was actually a lot more understandable. Bottom line Sat is that when I walk away from a game feeling an ump blatanty blows a call that helps decide a game, than that game and the sport on that night has no integrity to me at all.

Technology will expose all these screw-ups more and more. The issue facing MLB and all sports is simple:

1. Does MLB want to get it right?

2. Is it worth the investment in time and money to get it right?

3. Can MLB put up with the shame if it stands idly by when the inevitable happens and one of these calls gives you a false champion? And when that happens an entire season and the sport itself will have no integrity at all.

And I agree with Robbbs. At some future date this game will be ruled a perfect game and the last at bat will be stricken from the record. Hopefully it happens before the end of the season. Why must it happen? Obviously it's the right thing to do for the sport, the pitcher, the ump and the fans. This is a situation that has nno collateral damage. No one else reached base and the game ended with the right score, just the wrong boxscore. All the arguments about leaving it unchanged are arguments to support a blatant mistake and at some future date when time heals the emotions the correct call will be made because it's the right thing to do and anyone that saw the mistake knows it.
Jimrin1967
QUOTE (icehater @ Jun 4 2010, 01:00 PM) *
Can't agree on this at all. When an ump blows a call that is not even close, such as this one or the Cuzzi call on Mauer last year, or the absurd and laughable Jeter HR call or the call on Cano when two Yankees were on one base (note that all 3 of those calls were pro Yankee, imagine if all went the correct way or the incredible outcry from NY fans had all had happened for an opponent and against the Yankees), the integrity of the game has been interfered with. In the case of the two playoff calls where Cuzzi misses a ball landing well inside the line and he's standing 8-10 feet away you have to wonder if he was taking a bribe on the game or he was blind or had something in his eye at the exact worst time, because there's no other explanation. And if it were either of the latter two why not ask for help? He couldn't possibly have seen anything in the stands either. He was looking at a foul line, a dark backdrop of the wall in left, dirt, the foul line and a glove. All of these things gave him a perfect backfdrop to see the ball land fair but he saw it land foul somehow and never explained why. The perfect game screw-up was actually a lot more understandable. Bottom line Sat is that when I walk away from a game feeling an ump blatanty blows a call that helps decide a game, than that game and the sport on that night has no integrity to me at all.

Technology will expose all these screw-ups more and more. The issue facing MLB and all sports is simple:

1. Does MLB want to get it right?

2. Is it worth the investment in time and money to get it right?

3. Can MLB put up with the shame if it stands idly by when the inevitable happens and one of these calls gives you a false champion? And when that happens an entire season and the sport itself will have no integrity at all.

And I agree with Robbbs. At some future date this game will be ruled a perfect game and the last at bat will be stricken from the record. Hopefully it happens before the end of the season. Why must it happen? Obviously it's the right thing to do for the sport, the pitcher, the ump and the fans. This is a situation that has nno collateral damage. No one else reached base and the game ended with the right score, just the wrong boxscore. All the arguments about leaving it unchanged are arguments to support a blatant mistake and at some future date the correct call will be made because it's the right thing to do.


I can't entirely agree with that. For those that aren't on my facebook list, this is what i posted there as to the potential problems with overturning the call:

Hypothetical: Yankees v Red Sox. Jeter leads off the top of the 3rd in a 0-0 tie. He singles. Gardner follows with a single. Now Teixeira hits into a DP. Only the ump blows the call at 1st and calls Tex safe. Now instead of Jeter on 3rd with 2 outs, its 1st and 3rd with 1 out. Now A-Rod strikes out. That SHOULD have been the 3rd out. Cano follows with a single scoring Jeter. Swisher grounds out. Inning over. 1-0 Yankees. And that is how the game ends. Can the Red Sox now go to MLB and say the DP call in the 3rd should be overturned and the game picked up in the 10th inning tied 0-0? That's the type of precedent that would be being set here. Very dicey.
icehater
QUOTE (Jimrin1967 @ Jun 4 2010, 01:24 PM) *
I can't entirely agree with that. For those that aren't on my facebook list, this is what i posted there as to the potential problems with overturning the call:

Hypothetical: Yankees v Red Sox. Jeter leads off the top of the 3rd in a 0-0 tie. He singles. Gardner follows with a single. Now Teixeira hits into a DP. Only the ump blows the call at 1st and calls Tex safe. Now instead of Jeter on 3rd with 2 outs, its 1st and 3rd with 1 out. Now A-Rod strikes out. That SHOULD have been the 3rd out. Cano follows with a single scoring Jeter. Swisher grounds out. Inning over. 1-0 Yankees. And that is how the game ends. Can the Red Sox now go to MLB and say the DP call in the 3rd should be overturned and the game picked up in the 10th inning tied 0-0? That's the type of precedent that would be being set here. Very dicey.


It has no collateral damage because the next guy up made an out. Obviously if the next 3 guys up hit homers there would have been collateral damage and the call would have to stand. Of course the sport would look so bad that you'd have rule changes in days.
jfar57
I don't think they will go back and change any of the calls because that would open up the can of worms as to whether or not any other past calls should be reviewed. Its over, its done, its wrong. I do think that they do need to implement some future system to ensure that they get less of them wrong even though it won't be perfect.
satellite_eyes
That's the thing Jfar. It's a slippery slope even if it is blatantly obvious. I like the human element of the game and with that comes the inevitable mistakes. It's not just the umps, the players make mistakes too. We all make them. The focus should be on what can be done in the future to minimize the chances of them happening again, whatever that may be. Not on the past.
Jimrin1967
QUOTE (icehater @ Jun 4 2010, 01:31 PM) *
It has no collateral damage because the next guy up made an out. Obviously if the next 3 guys up hit homers there would have been collateral damage and the call would have to stand. Of course the sport would look so bad that you'd have rule changes in days.



The collateral damage is the precedent set going forward.
robbbs
QUOTE (satellite_eyes @ Jun 4 2010, 06:59 PM) *
That's the thing Jfar. It's a slippery slope even if it is blatantly obvious. I like the human element of the game and with that comes the inevitable mistakes. It's not just the umps, the players make mistakes too. We all make them. The focus should be on what can be done in the future to minimize the chances of them happening again, whatever that may be. Not on the past.


The "human" element should be confined to the athletes who actually play the game. Baseball's nonsensical system is once again revealed to the world. As for purists who argue against changing anything in baseball due to some misplaced sense of "integrity", I always bring up historical references to slavery or other injusticies. Purists, in any argument on any topic, cannot overcome logic and reason, and if it fails in one area, it follows that the argument fails on all topics.
icehater
QUOTE (Jimrin1967 @ Jun 4 2010, 02:17 PM) *
The collateral damage is the precedent set going forward.


Which is to correct bad errors. What exactly is wrong with that? Robbs has made it very obvious the game lacks integrity so what are purists preserving? Blacks being barred from the sport for so long, steroids vs non steroids, DH vs no DH in the same sport, umps that each have different strike zones, some of which blatantly violate the official strike zone, umps that like to make a circus act out of a strike call and keep fans waiting 4-5 seconds for a strike or ball call, $200 mln teams playing $45mln teams> These are things that make this sport pure??
icehater
QUOTE (jfar57 @ Jun 4 2010, 01:57 PM) *
I don't think they will go back and change any of the calls because that would open up the can of worms as to whether or not any other past calls should be reviewed. Its over, its done, its wrong. I do think that they do need to implement some future system to ensure that they get less of them wrong even though it won't be perfect.


I guarantee you it'll be changed in the future. Maybe another commissioner, maybe 10 years from now. Who knows when. But it'll be over-ruled by someone at some future date who has common sense and who is distanced from the event.
Jimrin1967
QUOTE (icehater @ Jun 4 2010, 04:08 PM) *
Which is to correct bad errors. What exactly is wrong with that? Robbs has made it very obvious the game lacks integrity so what are purists preserving? Blacks being barred from the sport for so long, steroids vs non steroids, DH vs no DH in the same sport, umps that each have different strike zones, some of which blatantly violate the official strike zone, umps that like to make a circus act out of a strike call and keep fans waiting 4-5 seconds for a strike or ball call, $200 mln teams playing $45mln teams> These are things that make this sport pure??


But that's apples and oranges. Steroids vs changing a call...even a blatantly bad one...after the game is over. Now I get the point its the 27th out and the game's outcome is not on the line. But unless you put a clear rule in that this rule to overturn only applies in a perfect game or no hitter situation; you're opening up Pandora's box for the kind of thing I described in the hypothetical game earlier in this thread. Where teams can protest a call and then what happens? You have a mulligan and go back and replay the game from the point of the bad call? As far as the "best interest of baseball" I have two views on that. One, the kid pitched a perfect game. Everyone knows he pitched a perfect game. Its one of the rarest feats in all of sports, Its good for baseball to recognize it. The other side though is a perfect game is an individual accomplishment. Baseball is a team sport. Even Galarraga said he was disappointed for a second but then immediately thought to himself that he still has another out to get to make sure his team won the game. So should the offices of Major League Baseball overturn a call that did not affect the outcome of a game but rather affected one player. Even though it was a rare and historic baseball moment.

On a side note, I think it was Tim Kurkijan that was asked what was going on this year...a no hitter and for all intents and purposes three perfect games and we're only in early June and he said right out its probably because not as many hitter are using steroids.

And as far as the umpires "putting on a show" Harold Reynold said on MLB Network that the umpires are definitely a part of the MLB show. I don't know how many on here are old enough to remember Ron Luciano. But his antics were legendary. I know people who would be looking to go to games and would hope Luciano would be working home plate because he was so animated and entertaining. Now...guys like Joe West are very bad for the integrity of the sport. But the guys who add a little flair or drama to their calls. That's been happening since forever and will always happen
jfar57
QUOTE (icehater @ Jun 4 2010, 04:11 PM) *
I guarantee you it'll be changed in the future. Maybe another commissioner, maybe 10 years from now. Who knows when. But it'll be over-ruled by someone at some future date who has common sense and who is distanced from the event.


I doubt it and I hope not....but stranger things have happened. The problem is not just contained to possible future debatable calls being "overturned" but past calls. If this is changed, what else gets changed? How many base hits in one hitters can get reviewed for consideration of being an error? What about game changing bad calls like Jeffrey Maier's catch of the Jeter HR, or Reggie Jackson sticking his hip out to interfere with a throw?

I know that the argument back would be that correcting Joyce's call would have no impact on the outcome of the game save for erasing one at bat from the record books, but you could make that same argument about any 1 hitter ever. MLB needs to focus on how to minimize these problems in the future and simply close the book on this chapter.
icehater
QUOTE (jfar57 @ Jun 7 2010, 09:56 AM) *
I doubt it and I hope not....but stranger things have happened. The problem is not just contained to possible future debatable calls being "overturned" but past calls. If this is changed, what else gets changed? How many base hits in one hitters can get reviewed for consideration of being an error? What about game changing bad calls like Jeffrey Maier's catch of the Jeter HR, or Reggie Jackson sticking his hip out to interfere with a throw?

I know that the argument back would be that correcting Joyce's call would have no impact on the outcome of the game save for erasing one at bat from the record books, but you could make that same argument about any 1 hitter ever. MLB needs to focus on how to minimize these problems in the future and simply close the book on this chapter.


Haven't you guys ever heard of a Presidential pardon. Call this a commisioner's pardon and get past the arrogance and pigheadedness of protecting and preserving an awful mistake. When something very special is so badly ruined by a blatantly obvious mistake its being overturned is an exception to the rule. You overturn this one mistake and move on. No other bad call has to be overturned. When the President grants a pardon he does'nt pardon every criminal in jail with it. I'm at a loss as to why anyone thinks overturning this call requires so many other things to be overturned. The ump screwed up on the last out of a perfect game and everyone in the world even loosely connected to it knows it. So where's the grandeur in keeping it as it stands when we all know it's wrong. Grandeur is for something that is right and virtuous, not for something that is a permanent stain on a special event.
rgwp96
QUOTE (icehater @ Jun 7 2010, 10:57 PM) *
Haven't you guys ever heard of a Presidential pardon. Call this a commisioner's pardon and get past the arrogance and pigheadedness of protecting and preserving an awful mistake. When something very special is so badly ruined by a blatantly obvious mistake its being overturned is an exception to the rule. You overturn this one mistake and move on. No other bad call has to be overturned. When the President grants a pardon he does'nt pardon every criminal in jail with it. I'm at a loss as to why anyone thinks overturning this call requires so many other things to be overturned. The ump screwed up on the last out of a perfect game and everyone in the world even loosely connected to it knows it. So where's the grandeur in keeping it as it stands when we all know it's wrong. Grandeur is for something that is right and virtuous, not for something that is a permanent stain on a special event.

another reason it could be changed is because it doesnt effect the outcome of the game. either way Detroit still wins.
jfar57
QUOTE (icehater @ Jun 7 2010, 10:57 PM) *
Haven't you guys ever heard of a Presidential pardon. Call this a commisioner's pardon and get past the arrogance and pigheadedness of protecting and preserving an awful mistake. When something very special is so badly ruined by a blatantly obvious mistake its being overturned is an exception to the rule. You overturn this one mistake and move on. No other bad call has to be overturned. When the President grants a pardon he does'nt pardon every criminal in jail with it. I'm at a loss as to why anyone thinks overturning this call requires so many other things to be overturned. The ump screwed up on the last out of a perfect game and everyone in the world even loosely connected to it knows it. So where's the grandeur in keeping it as it stands when we all know it's wrong. Grandeur is for something that is right and virtuous, not for something that is a permanent stain on a special event.

Why do you suppose pardons happen en masse on the last day the president is in office...to avoid all the potential issues and debate
icehater
QUOTE (jfar57 @ Jun 9 2010, 05:11 PM) *
Why do you suppose pardons happen en masse on the last day the president is in office...to avoid all the potential issues and debate


I'm talking about individual pardons. But for the record your belief is preserving this mistake forever is the right thing to do and is in the best interest of the sport and its fans? If so I assume you'd feel the same way if the ump called the runner out even if he was safe by 2 feet.
jfar57
QUOTE (icehater @ Jun 9 2010, 05:15 PM) *
I'm talking about individual pardons. But for the record your belief is preserving this mistake forever is the right thing to do and is in the best interest of the sport and its fans? If so I assume you'd feel the same way if the ump called the runner out even if he was safe by 2 feet.


yep..for the record, I think that the call should stand, even if its as blatantly wrong as all the calls in last years post season, or calls in the past (like Jeffrey Maer), or this one. I am not much for revisionist history. And if it was as bad as 2 feet and the other umps didn't change it, then so be it.

I also think that it should be the catalyst to create a clearly defined and improved instant replay to be used immediately.
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