Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Model Verification and upcoming pattern
NYC Metro Weather Forums > Weather Discussion > Greater NYC Area Weather Discussion
Stormchaser
Once again, the European blew the GFS out of the water in terms of detecting this major winter storm from 7 days in advance. Model verification has shown that the Euro is the way to go when forecasting in the medium (3-5) to long range (5+ out)

This was the Euro forecast for today, from 7 days ago:





The current sfc panel:




ECMWF nearly nailed the track from seven days out. It missed by 50 miles too far east -- but that's still real impressive. Obviously those 50 miles would have made a heck of a difference when talking sleet/snow.

An overlay GFS VS. Euro map -- this is a forecast from seven days ago -- the Euro fcst is in blue, the GFS in red:




Note the apparent tendency for the GFS (as well as it's ensembles) to suppress in the medium-long range. Euro was deadly accurate.

For the short-term, the model of choice was the NAM-WRF.

Well, how about the next seven days? The ECMWF is signalling another interior Northeast snowstorm the middle of next week with a much more amplified solution than the GFS. Actually depicts a rapidly intensifying low in a similar place to this past event:



Too far away for details as you know -- however -- let's see how well the Euro does with next week. Taken verbatim, another significant snow in the interior, and heavy rain ending as snow for I-95. I'm not forecasting anything so don't try to put words in my mouth (you well know who I'm referring to)

At this point in time the large-scale indices remain favorable for a mean-trough near the NE US coast -- negative AO, slightly negative NAO. However, we do see some regime changes in the eastern pacific for a time; hence, a brief but certainly noticable temperature moderation is likely mid/latter part of next week. It will feel like a heat wave compared to today -- but temps only near to slightly above normal (low/mid 40's for NYC) I also continue to see an el nino induced Sub-tropical jet with plenty of storminess through the beginning of March. Only problem is temperatures are going to be very marginal. We've been in this well-below average temperature regime since the middle of January -- about 4-6 weeks. The warm pattern lasted around 6 weeks the first half of the winter. Climatologically speaking, it's not typical for a record-breaking cold pattern to last more than 4-6 weeks. Therefore, temps moderating to normal is a good idea for next week. I believe we'll see one more step-down to colder than normal the end of Feb into early March prior to going full-fledge spingtime warmth. The way this winter has been going I'm not that confident on snowstorm opportunities -- it's possible -- but we need to time the cold air and storminess perfectly. In closing, I'll probably bust (much?) too high with my 25-32" range (revised fcst from December) but not ruling it out.
robbbs
Storm, great analysis. Thanks.
Stormchaser
QUOTE
Storm, great analysis. Thanks.



Robbbs, I think this winter has further proven how much of a guessing game long-range forecasting is. To think many of us were speculating on possible 40-50"+ season totals in NYC this winter as the signals looked great back in October and November. Even when taking every index into account, things do not always go as planned in meteorology. I guess that's the fun of it; very challenging. As for the rest of this winter, we'll be more up & down in terms of temperature -- not the persistent cold of the past several weeks. If we time the cold right a storm is possible, but I'm not calling for anything yet.
njblizzard
Thanks storm, I guess we have to get lucky sometime this winter.
lab94
Nice analysis. right or wrong with your (and others) forcasts for the winter doesnt matter. I enjoy your forcasting and thoughts. With that said lets talk about the next storn. I know its early, as that model has it now is it surface temps along with the track that is the problem. And does this model show the 850 temps as trouble too.  And would you be as qick as JB to say all rain. Just tring to learn not put you on the spot. Thanks
listarz
Very good storm, thanks. I would just like to add, that if there can be such a dismal outcome from an apparently bountiful stretch of cold weather, there is at least an equal chance that we can see a decent snow in the upcoming not so favorable stretch of weather.  I know...  ??? Try to follow.
Stormchaser
QUOTE
Nice analysis. right or wrong with your (and others) forcasts for the winter doesnt matter. I enjoy your forcasting and thoughts. With that said lets talk about the next storn. I know its early, as that model has it now is it surface temps along with the track that is the problem. And does this model show the 850 temps as trouble too.  And would you be as qick as JB to say all rain. Just tring to learn not put you on the spot. Thanks


All of the above. Surface temps are a problem as well as 850mb temps -- but that can all change with track. Right now the most prudent call would be low probability of wintry pcpn outside of the appalachains as there's no data supporting a winter storm. However, we're seven days away and as we've seen with this last event -- things can flip on a dime.

FYI--historical tidbit--every weak and moderate el nino winter has produced one 6"+ event in both NYC and Philly. The largest storm thus far has been 2.0"in NYC and 4.2" I believe in PHL. If we don't see a 6"+ storm the rest of the winter, it would be the first time in recorded history. Statistics are usually pretty accurate in determining future weather -- case in point -- remember my post in December saying no winter has finished above normal snow in NYC with no snow in November and December. That looks to turn out correct.
Stormchaser
Who knows; maybe we'll see our 6"+ event in early March this year. It's been a wild winter.
lab94
QUOTE
QUOTE

Nice analysis. right or wrong with your (and others) forcasts for the winter doesnt matter. I enjoy your forcasting and thoughts. With that said lets talk about the next storn. I know its early, as that model has it now is it surface temps along with the track that is the problem. And does this model show the 850 temps as trouble too.  And would you be as qick as JB to say all rain. Just tring to learn not put you on the spot. Thanks


All of the above. Surface temps are a problem as well as 850mb temps -- but that can all change with track. Right now the most prudent call would be low probability of wintry pcpn outside of the appalachains as there's no data supporting a winter storm. However, we're seven days away and as we've seen with this last event -- things can flip on a dime.

FYI--historical tidbit--every weak and moderate el nino winter has produced one 6"+ event in both NYC and Philly. The largest storm thus far has been 2.0"in NYC and 4.2" I believe in PHL. If we don't see a 6"+ storm the rest of the winter, it would be the first time in recorded history. Statistics are usually pretty accurate in determining future weather -- case in point -- remember my post in December saying no winter has finished above normal snow in NYC with no snow in November and December. That looks to turn out correct.


Thanks. I guess if we have to suffer through a winter with a low snow total atleast we will set that record.,LOL
rgwp96
QUOTE
Who knows; maybe we'll see our 6"+ event in early March this year. It's been a wild winter.


probably early april
Stormchaser
Another FYI -- average snow in NYC is 5.1" for March, 5.4" for December. So chances for snow are about the same as Dec.

In Philly -- March is actually snowier on average. Mar: 3.6" Dec: 3.2".
Stormchaser
QUOTE
QUOTE

Who knows; maybe we'll see our 6"+ event in early March this year. It's been a wild winter.


probably early april



Come to think of it we are due for an April snowstorm. Haven't had one since 2003. Usually every 3-4 years or so.
njblizzard
168hrs...This looks familiar...
viking70
Let me say first that I am not basing this on any models or any scientific thought.  LOL.  Purely wishcasting.  I think that the storm on the 22nd will be similar to the last storm.  We may get something ot of it, but looks more like rain with the chance of mixd precip turning to snow.  Maybe NW and west of the city have a chance with higher totals.  BUT....  I have read that there is a chance for a bigger storm aound March 2-3.  The third is my birthday, so I think I may get a snowy birthday present.  LOL.  That is the storm I am most focused on.  i hope that my birthday wishes can come true for all of us.
terryjohnson16
Someone please say that the Pacific Jet is coming back, or heck, even say that a Ridge will build over the east. We are way below normal for this time of year.
Stormchaser
QUOTE
Someone please say that the Pacific Jet is coming back, or heck, even say that a Ridge will build over the east. We are way below normal for this time of year.


I think this winter's been fair to everyone. You had your top 10 warmest December -- now we have our top 10 coldest February. Nice balance. Interestingly enough NYC was +11 (departure from normal) through the end of January; but thus far February is around -9.00 I believe. This month could potentially wipe out most of the positive departures in Dec/Jan, allowing the meteorological winter D-J-F to end up fairly close to normal. That would be fairly close to my winter forecast which called for normal to a bit below temps for the met winter -- however -- many of us will get it right for the wrong reasons. LOL. I don't think anyone saw a top 10 warm Dec followed by a top 10, probably top 5 cold Feb in the same winter!

As for the pattern -- I believe we see a brief warm-up above normal mid/late next week but then we're back down again the last week of Feb. March should begin pretty cold but I've always been expecting a warmer than normal month. March's following mod nino winters usually anywhere from +1 to +4 above ave. in the Northeast. El nino Feb. climatology has worked for this month -- nearly 100% of el nino Feb's are colder than normal.
terryjohnson16
Its those brutal winds that are making it feel colder than what it should. My feet have gotten frost bite 3 times in 2 days.
Stormchaser
QUOTE
Its those brutal winds that are making it feel colder than what it should. My feet have gotten frost bite 3 times in 2 days.


Put on some socks dammit. LOL. Can't go out wearing sandals in this weather.
terryjohnson16
QUOTE
QUOTE

Its those brutal winds that are making it feel colder than what it should. My feet have gotten frost bite 3 times in 2 days.


Put on some socks dammit. LOL. Can't go out wearing sandals in this weather.


Even with 2 pairs of socks, ITS COLD OUTSIDE. LOL.
NYBrit
QUOTE
QUOTE

Its those brutal winds that are making it feel colder than what it should. My feet have gotten frost bite 3 times in 2 days.


Put on some socks dammit. LOL. Can't go out wearing sandals in this weather.


LMAO!
terryjohnson16
QUOTE
QUOTE

QUOTE

Its those brutal winds that are making it feel colder than what it should. My feet have gotten frost bite 3 times in 2 days.


Put on some socks dammit. LOL. Can't go out wearing sandals in this weather.


LMAO!


Rolls Eyes. LOL.
Virgaman
I keep hearing about march 1958 being very similar to this winter and if that is the case, i believe there was a huge snowstorm in march 1958, i just have a feeling around march 8th to 12th we are going to get a huge snowstorm before this pattern turns really mild.  something always seems to happen during that time.

I also remember a really really cool ice and snowstorm with strong winds around march 24th to 28th period in 1984, a very slow moving on, and of course the super storm around march 13 1993 so there can still be some real fun in march.
Stormchaser
QUOTE
Once again, the European blew the GFS out of the water in terms of detecting this major winter storm from 7 days in advance. Model verification has shown that the Euro is the way to go when forecasting in the medium (3-5) to long range (5+ out)

This was the Euro forecast for today, from 7 days ago:


[img width=600 height=644]http://i9.tinypic.com/4huom50.jpg[/img]


The current sfc panel:

[img width=600 height=419]http://i15.tinypic.com/4byhqtv.jpg[/img]


ECMWF nearly nailed the track from seven days out. It missed by 50 miles too far east -- but that's still real impressive. Obviously those 50 miles would have made a heck of a difference when talking sleet/snow.

An overlay GFS VS. Euro map -- this is a forecast from seven days ago -- the Euro fcst is in blue, the GFS in red:

[img width=600 height=449]http://i15.tinypic.com/43ekc5i.jpg[/img]


Note the apparent tendency for the GFS (as well as it's ensembles) to suppress in the medium-long range. Euro was deadly accurate.

For the short-term, the model of choice was the NAM-WRF.

Well, how about the next seven days? The ECMWF is signalling another interior Northeast snowstorm the middle of next week with a much more amplified solution than the GFS. Actually depicts a rapidly intensifying low in a similar place to this past event:

[img width=600 height=448]http://i18.tinypic.com/4hd3ryt.jpg[/img]

Too far away for details as you know -- however -- let's see how well the Euro does with next week. Taken verbatim, another significant snow in the interior, and heavy rain ending as snow for I-95. I'm not forecasting anything so don't try to put words in my mouth (you well know who I'm referring to)

At this point in time the large-scale indices remain favorable for a mean-trough near the NE US coast -- negative AO, slightly negative NAO. However, we do see some regime changes in the eastern pacific for a time; hence, a brief but certainly noticable temperature moderation is likely mid/latter part of next week. It will feel like a heat wave compared to today -- but temps only near to slightly above normal (low/mid 40's for NYC) I also continue to see an el nino induced Sub-tropical jet with plenty of storminess through the beginning of March. Only problem is temperatures are going to be very marginal. We've been in this well-below average temperature regime since the middle of January -- about 4-6 weeks. The warm pattern lasted around 6 weeks the first half of the winter. Climatologically speaking, it's not typical for a record-breaking cold pattern to last more than 4-6 weeks. Therefore, temps moderating to normal is a good idea for next week. I believe we'll see one more step-down to colder than normal the end of Feb into early March prior to going full-fledge spingtime warmth. The way this winter has been going I'm not that confident on snowstorm opportunities -- it's possible -- but we need to time the cold air and storminess perfectly. In closing, I'll probably bust (much?) too high with my 25-32" range (revised fcst from December) but not ruling it out.



Obviously the Euro projection was way off -- glad I didn't buy into it.

Nevertheless -- I still like my ideas from a few days ago on the cold end of February/beginning of March. We moderate to normal/slightly above for a few days later this weekend prior to diving back into the tank Feb 25th-Mar 6th. This is the time frame we need a storm or I'm afraid that may be it for the winter season. (in terms of significant snow chances)

GFS ensembles in fairly good agreement on this notion:

http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~gadomski/ENSHGTNH_18z/f240.html

Ensemble mean trough position generally back over the Great Lakes which allows some ridging offshore -- favorable for baroclinic zone running up the east coast. Considering the thermal gradient will be intensifying as we approach the beginning of meteorological spring; one would think with the huge clash of airmasses there's going to be a large storm somewhere in the Eastern US. Whether it's an inland runner, Lakes-cutter, coastal hugger, or an ocean storm is anyone's guess. The fact is a -AO/NAO couplet is very favorable for an early March snow. However, "favorable" has meant nothing this winter, so don't bother getting your hopes up.

Bottom lines:
1) Moderating temperatures to the 40-45 degree range the second half of this week; near normal for the weekend.
2) Temps tumble once again the last few days of Feb as a -AO/-NAO reasserts itself. (possibly for the last time)
3) This February will definitely finish in the top 20 coldest; possibly a top 10 dependent upon the magnitude of the warming/cooling the next 10 days.
4) Storm threats uncertain but our last chance for a significant one is the Feb 26th-Mar 6th period.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2012 Invision Power Services, Inc.